[joe-frank-list] Re: joe-frank-list Digest, Vol 35, Issue 15
Cynthia Burkey
sendme at earthlink.net
Tue Jun 20 20:16:59 PDT 2006
just my 2 -c- : I found Kornfeld (it is -feld, right?) to be sensible and nice and completely unengaging. It was much more fun to listen to Debi or Larry. I don't enjoy listening to spirituality being directly discussed by anyone, though, especially anyone nice and well-intentioned. It's just not my thing. It sounds like maybe the only one here who really tuned those segments out. Someone asked for people's reactions, so I thought I'd toss my point of view out there since I'm pretty much alone ;-D
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>Subject: joe-frank-list Digest, Vol 35, Issue 15
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>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Jack Kornfield (KneeCha at aol.com)
> 2. Re: Jack Kornfield (KneeCha at aol.com)
> 3. Re: Jack Kornfield (Tom McDonald)
> 4. Re: Jack Kornfield (craig millman)
> 5. Re: Jack Kornfield (Damon Akins)
> 6. Re: Jack Kornfield (Larry Dunn)
> 7. Re: Re: Jack Kornfield (bewareofdog at mac.com)
> 8. Re: Jack Kornfield (SpringyStepps at aol.com)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:12:12 EDT
>From: KneeCha at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [joe-frank-list] Jack Kornfield
>To: joe-frank-list at armory.com
>Message-ID: <520.a7175e.31c9a28c at aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>When Kornfield first appeared in Joe's work, it seemed out of place.
>
>And then I tried to figure out, is Joe mocking him or embracing him? Or does
>Kornfield's words just fit into the rest of the piece?
>
>I concluded, no, no, and no.
>
>I think Joe likes his voice and appreciates the hypnotic power. Also, the
>tone of peace and enlightenment balances and gives relief and contrast with
>Joe's inquietude and doubt.
>
>Kornfield is highly respected in his field, and as was noted here
>previously, he's unfamiliar with Joe's work. They're not buddies. They've never met.
>
>Kornfield isn't a neat fit into Joe's pieces, but then again, Joe is a
>sloppy though brilliant artist.
>
>Through Joe's work, Kornfield has kind of grown on me and I've sought out
>his recordings. With a little patience, they can be downloaded from Limewire.
>
>Robert Wright
>San Jose
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>Message: 2
>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:16:30 EDT
>From: KneeCha at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [joe-frank-list] Jack Kornfield
>To: joe-frank-list at armory.com
>Message-ID: <48d.2e3395f.31c9a38e at aol.com>
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>
>If you search Alan Watts via iTunes, you can find free podcasts.
>
>It's difficult to like Alan Watts after hearing Kornfield. Watts is smart
>and might make you think, but sometimes, I don't know, I feel like slapping him.
>
>Listening to Kornfield can be like taking Vicoden.
>
>Robert Wright
>San Jose
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:28:01 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Tom McDonald <awkwardgrace at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [joe-frank-list] Jack Kornfield
>To: Joe Frank Mailing List <joe-frank-list at armory.com>
>Message-ID: <20060620232803.18880.qmail at web51807.mail.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>That's my experience too Robert. Except for the part
>about vicodin, which I've never taken, so I'll just
>take yr word for it.
>
>Watts is fascinating to read about, a brilliant and
>colorful character to be sure, but his writing and the
>one or two podcasts I listened to didn't do it for me.
>Is it the kind of thing that appeals to you when yr in
>your early 20s but not so much afterwards? (OK. I did
>read a book of his during my early 20s, and had a kind
>of panic attack. Something about fear of never
>escaping ego or something like that. A true panic
>attack. Never happened before, never happened again. I
>guess that's a sign of powerful writing (or a
>vulnerable young man) but in any case going back to
>him some 20 years later it was a bit of a let down.
>Usually when I go back to things I watched or read 20
>years ago I find more there, not less.)
>
>Oh, speaking of brilliant and colorful characters,
>have any of you folks seen The Cruise (the documentary
>about a bloke who leads tourist bus cruises in New
>York City)? What did you think?
>
>--- KneeCha at aol.com wrote:
>
>> If you search Alan Watts via iTunes, you can find
>> free podcasts.
>>
>> It's difficult to like Alan Watts after hearing
>> Kornfield. Watts is smart
>> and might make you think, but sometimes, I don't
>> know, I feel like slapping him.
>>
>> Listening to Kornfield can be like taking Vicoden.
>>
>> Robert Wright
>> San Jose
>> > _______________________________________________
>> Joe Frank Mailing List
>> joe-frank-list at armory.com
>>
>http://www.armory.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/joe-frank-list
>>
>
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:15:48 -0700 (PDT)
>From: craig millman <creigeallan at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [joe-frank-list] Jack Kornfield
>To: Joe Frank Mailing List <joe-frank-list at armory.com>,
> rholland356 at yahoo.com
>Message-ID: <20060621001548.48711.qmail at web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>I heard that interview and found it real surprising
>that Kornfield hadn't heard of JF. It seemed like he
>was a bit wary Joe might have been mocking him or not
>necessarily using his content with the same integrity.
>I don't know if Kornfield would get Joe, but I have no
>doubt Joe gets Kornfield.
>
>To me Kornfield is the real deal. He's not a wimpy new
>ager and he's not a phony like Chopra and Dyer. He's
>authentic. I've listened to podcasts of other
>Buddhists and I can't get into it like Kornfield. He
>has real substance. I thought his "Path with Heart"
>was a very good read.
>
>Watts is total different. He didn't really practice,
>he lectured. He's more of a scholar/bon vivant.
>Personally I think the Donald Sutherland character in
>Animal House had a little Alan Watts in him.
>
>Watts gets repetitious but I love listening to him
>because to me his philosophy is incredibly sensible.
>
>
>--- Tom McDonald <awkwardgrace at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> My initial reaction to Kornfield segments was
>> practically to roll my eyes and hold my nose. After
>> not too long, though, I began to like the musicality
>> of his voice. And then, persuaded to listen, I
>> realized we was going beyond the simplistic thinking
>> that I associate with spiritual tourism, and I
>> understood that he actually did have some wisdom to
>> impart. In the end I've collected quite a few of his
>> audio materials (on the written page his voice
>> doesn't
>> come through). Because of my gut-level objections to
>> new age things and self help things, I realize I
>> never
>> would have tapped into JF were it not for the Joe
>> Frank wrapping put it around.
>>
>> I think there's an episode where Larry and Joe talk
>> about Kornfield, almost in passing. That snippet
>> tended to confirm what I thought all along (once I
>> took JK seriously), which is that Joe weaves in the
>> Kornfield bits because there's a richness there and
>> lack of irony. If nothing else, the JK segments work
>> as a kind of musical or emotional counterpoint (a
>> calm
>> clear voice against the more manic and anguished and
>> ironic voices).
>>
>> Also, and I think this came up on this list about a
>> year ago, during a Bay Area radio interview with JK
>> it
>> was revealed that he had never heard of Joe Frank!
>>
>> --- Robert Holland <rholland356 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I enjoy the juxtaposition of views and voices that
>> > Kornfield brings to the works. It really enhances
>> > the
>> > stories, from my point of view.
>> >
>> > Listen to Larry telling his manic stories. Larry's
>> > playing a modern voice that you just know couldn't
>> > fit
>> > into Kornfield's ancient view of life. And
>> > Kornfield's
>> > performance is quite suave and soothing--he's a
>> > salesman. With Kornfield as background, Larry
>> leaps
>> > from the radio.
>> >
>> > Instead of us getting 30 minutes of a Larry rant,
>> > which could become mundane, by framing Larry with
>> > Kornfield, it just makes Larry really come alive.
>> It
>> > enhances the nuances in Larry's story.
>> >
>> > I don't see a spiritual search here on Joe's part.
>> > Nobody interacts with Kornfield, or pursues
>> Buddhist
>> > philosophy during the shows.
>> >
>> > Robert
>> >
>> > --- Jeff Anton <antonjf at hesiod.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > It took quite a while for me to stop being
>> annoyed
>> > > by Jack's voice
>> > > in Joe's work. For me, Jack seems like a pale,
>> > > monotone and overly
>> > > simple version of Alan Watts. Having heard many
>> > of
>> > > the recordings
>> > > of Alan Watts' lectures, Jack puts me to sleep.
>> > > Alan's talks and
>> > > stories seem very much more like Joe's work to
>> me.
>> >
>> > > I've also thought
>> > > that Joe might have run out of his own point of
>> > > view. Joe's early
>> > > work was often actors doing some reading with
>> Joe
>> > as
>> > > a kind of
>> > > narrator or chorus pointing something out. When
>> > > Jack Kornfield
>> > > showed up, I felt that Joe deligated the
>> > > narrator/chorus role to
>> > > Jack because so much of those shows are Joe and
>> > > Frank or Debi on
>> > > the phone.
>> > >
>> > > Jeff Anton
>> > >
>> > > Sally wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > I would absolutely love to hear what
>> everyone's
>> > > take on Jack Kornfield
>> > > > is, and what they think Joe's take on him is.
>> > > >
>> > > > I initially regarded them ironically, and
>> > assumed
>> > > Joe was using them as
>> > > > counterpoint to Debi (who seems after a sense
>> of
>> > > spiritual fulfillment)
>> > > > and also sometimes Larry (who seems to
>> > > misunderstand Jack completely).
>> > > > But, now I've actually gotten really into
>> them.
>> > I
>> > > feel like Joe is
>> > > > using them to condemn Debi and Larry's world
>> > view.
>> > > But, then, does Joe
>> > > > subscribe to Jack's philosophies?
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > What is an oilostatic?
>> > > > sally at oilostatic.com
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> _______________________________________________
>> > > > Joe Frank Mailing List
>> > > > joe-frank-list at armory.com
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>http://www.armory.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/joe-frank-list
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Joe Frank Mailing List
>> > > joe-frank-list at armory.com
>> > >
>> >
>>
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>> > >
>> >
>> >
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:16:52 -0500
>From: Damon Akins <dbakins at cox.net>
>Subject: Re: [joe-frank-list] Jack Kornfield
>To: Joe Frank Mailing List <joe-frank-list at armory.com>
>Message-ID: <7A1C170F-2F41-4007-A768-AFD70B37EDFB at cox.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>On Alan Watts, back in the late 90s, KPFK used to broadcast him
>regularly in the wee hours of the morning. Often, I would find myself
>in a very Joe-moment: stumbling back to my car with a heady buzz
>after last call, and driving up Silverlake Blvd to the freeway
>listening to the program. In that context, very enlightening. But I
>imagine, as others have suggested, that with a more neutral approach,
>his teachings might fall a bit flat. He has a sonorous voice which is
>particularly so at 2:00a.
>
>On the Joe / Kornfield relationship, I have to agree with others that
>what is going on there is much more complex than endorsement /
>ridicule. If it were the latter, it might have been on the shows once
>or twice. I think it is something like the cracker between wine
>tasting rounds, not to call Kornfield a cracker... no racial slur
>implied.
>
>Haven't seen The Cruise. Thrilled abt the podcasts.
>
>
>
>On Jun 20, 2006, at 6:28 PM, Tom McDonald wrote:
>
>> That's my experience too Robert. Except for the part
>> about vicodin, which I've never taken, so I'll just
>> take yr word for it.
>>
>> Watts is fascinating to read about, a brilliant and
>> colorful character to be sure, but his writing and the
>> one or two podcasts I listened to didn't do it for me.
>> Is it the kind of thing that appeals to you when yr in
>> your early 20s but not so much afterwards? (OK. I did
>> read a book of his during my early 20s, and had a kind
>> of panic attack. Something about fear of never
>> escaping ego or something like that. A true panic
>> attack. Never happened before, never happened again. I
>> guess that's a sign of powerful writing (or a
>> vulnerable young man) but in any case going back to
>> him some 20 years later it was a bit of a let down.
>> Usually when I go back to things I watched or read 20
>> years ago I find more there, not less.)
>>
>> Oh, speaking of brilliant and colorful characters,
>> have any of you folks seen The Cruise (the documentary
>> about a bloke who leads tourist bus cruises in New
>> York City)? What did you think?
>>
>> --- KneeCha at aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> If you search Alan Watts via iTunes, you can find
>>> free podcasts.
>>>
>>> It's difficult to like Alan Watts after hearing
>>> Kornfield. Watts is smart
>>> and might make you think, but sometimes, I don't
>>> know, I feel like slapping him.
>>>
>>> Listening to Kornfield can be like taking Vicoden.
>>>
>>> Robert Wright
>>> San Jose
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Joe Frank Mailing List
>>> joe-frank-list at armory.com
>>>
>> http://www.armory.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/joe-frank-list
>>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> joe-frank-list at armory.com
>> http://www.armory.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/joe-frank-list
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 18:02:07 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Larry Dunn <majestic_cheese at yahoo.com>
>Subject: [joe-frank-list] Re: Jack Kornfield
>To: joe-frank-list at armory.com
>Message-ID: <20060621010207.11325.qmail at web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>From: "Justin Kempton" <justin at kempton.com>
>
>>But just as Kornfield is appealing in his desire to
>>be a good person, one of the things I love about
>>Alan Watts, is that he allows for you to be bad. He
>>talks of a irreducible rascality in all of us.
>
>Hardly surprising in someone who drank himself to
>death at age 58. Or, more to the point, someone who
>went from being a conservative Republican to being ...
>a libertarian. :D
>
>>It's a morality
>>based upon the understanding that you are just as
>>capable if not more so of being evil in a given
>>situation,
>>and so you do not judge others for their action.
>
>Which of course is strictly kindergarten stuff for sthaviravada.
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:10:04 -0400
>From: bewareofdog at mac.com
>Subject: Re: [joe-frank-list] Re: Jack Kornfield
>To: Joe Frank Mailing List <joe-frank-list at armory.com>
>Message-ID: <E0E275BD-DCFB-4D53-8DBC-09D94F354341 at mac.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>
>
>Larry, your ability to take any conversation and with one turn of
>the phrase make it taste sour has us all endlessly licking our lips.
>
>
>On Jun 20, 2006, at 9:02 PM, Larry Dunn wrote:
>
>> From: "Justin Kempton" <justin at kempton.com>
>>
>>> But just as Kornfield is appealing in his desire to
>>> be a good person, one of the things I love about
>>> Alan Watts, is that he allows for you to be bad. He
>>> talks of a irreducible rascality in all of us.
>>
>> Hardly surprising in someone who drank himself to
>> death at age 58. Or, more to the point, someone who
>> went from being a conservative Republican to being ...
>> a libertarian. :D
>>
>>> It's a morality
>>> based upon the understanding that you are just as
>>> capable if not more so of being evil in a given
>>> situation,
>>> and so you do not judge others for their action.
>>
>> Which of course is strictly kindergarten stuff for sthaviravada.
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:50:39 EDT
>From: SpringyStepps at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [joe-frank-list] Jack Kornfield
>To: joe-frank-list at armory.com
>Message-ID: <48f.2f16ede.31ca0dff at aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>In a message dated 6/20/2006 6:31:06 PM Central Standard Time,
>awkwardgrace at yahoo.com writes:
>
>Oh, speaking of brilliant and colorful characters,
>have any of you folks seen The Cruise (the documentary
>about a bloke who leads tourist bus cruises in New
>York City)? What did you think?
>
>
>
>I LOVE this doc! I've watched it several times, and I think it's just the
>type of art that you could go back to every few years and have more and more
>revealed to you and about you. Remember that wonderful scene at World Trade
>Center, him on the ground looking up at the buildings? And his conversations
>with the local plants and decorative effects on building facades? He would
>have been the most original, amazing commentator in the months following 9/11.
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